Welcome to the fifth installment of the EVE Blog Banter, the monthly EVE Online blogging extravaganza created by CrazyKinux. The EVE Blog Banter involves an enthusiastic group of gaming bloggers, a common topic within the realm of EVE Online, and a week to post articles pertaining to the said topic. The resulting articles can either be short or quite extensive, either funny or dead serious, but are always a great fun to read! Any questions about the EVE Blog Banter should be directed here. Check out other EVE Blog Banter
This month’s topic comes to us from Mynxee of Life in Low Sec. She asks “Alts and Metagaming: Is playing two accounts who are logged in at the same time and work together (hauler/miner, explorer/combat associate, trade alts in trade hubs) a form of metagaming that is “ruining the game”?“
To answer Mynxee’s question you have to understand the terminology. So, what is metagaming? We will use the definition that is available on the famous and/or infamous Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming_(role-playing_games.
In role-playing games, metagaming is the use of out-of-character knowledge in an in-character situation. A character played by a metagamer does not act in a way that reflects the character’s in-game experiences and back-story.
Metagaming is a tough topic, mainly due to the passion that surrounds it. When most people are complaining on the EVE forums about metagaming, they end up using language and definitions in the wrong context. It’s impossible to remove metagaming from a game for the simple reason that we are all human beings. Some of us are good at math, others at tactical thinking, some are more confident while under stress in a combat situation while others, not so much. We all bring certain skills to a game that will affect the various outcomes of situations we encounter. I will now make the following statement as it needs to be said:
It’s not whether or not metagaming exists, it’s whether or not the game play would have a different outcome as a result of metagaming. That’s the real issue.
Now to understand the argument and both parts of the question Mynxee has asked, let’s use the following examples of a freighter pilot both with and without an alt scout:
Example 1, the solo freighter pilot.
We will call this pilot, pilot A. Pilot A has just left Jita with a large volume of expensive goods in his cargo hold. He takes the shortest route to his destination which will take him through low security space. When he jumps into a low sec system, his ship is caught by a gate camp. He is ransomed and refuses to pay the ransom. As a consequence, his ship is destroyed and he has lost all that expensive material that was in his cargo hold.
Example 2, the freigher pilot with an alt scout.
The freighter pilot, Pilot A has just left Jita with a large volume of expensive goods in his cargo hold. He takes the shortest route to his destination which will take him through low security space. Pilot B, flying a scouting ship, is leading Pilot A along his route. When Pilot B jumps into a low security system, he sees a gate camp. Pilot A, seeing this danger on his second account, stops his ship, changes his autopilot settings and takes a safer route to his destination.
Now I have seen many posts on the EVE forums claiming that an example such as our example 2 constitutes metagaming. Pilot A would not have known about the dangerous gate camp if he was not running a second account with Pilot B scouting ahead for him. That argument is valid. It is metagaming.
Why?
In our example, both pilots A and B are the same person. Technically information obtained from Pilot B affected the actions of Pilot A. Since both pilots are the same person in the real world, it is use of out of character knowledge from Pilot B with the intention of affecting the actions of Pilot A. It is metagaming in it’s simplest form.
Now for the second part of the question. Does the use of an alt, such as Pilot B, provide a different result in game play if Pilot B was not the same person as Pilot A. Does such activity ruin the game?
Ulimately, no. Why?
If Pilot B had been an another EVE player, possibly a corp mate, alliance mate or simply a kind person who was helping Pilot A, would Pilot A have not altered his course to avoid the danger? Of course he would. Pilot A would have taken the information from the other player, stopped his ship and found a safer route regardless. It is a moot point if Pilot B was the same person as Pilot A, the game play results of the information concerning the gate camp in low security space would have been the same. Pilot A would have changed course to avoid the danger.
Again, say it with me now:
It’s not whether or not metagaming exists, it’s whether or not the game play would have a different outcome as a result of metagaming. That’s the real issue.
Many people make the claim that alt accounts will ruin the game as many alts are paid for using GTC or PLEX cards purchased with in game money. As a result, CCP is not making as much real world money as it should be making.
This agrument is simply not true. Remember, someone had to pay real world money for those GTC’s and PLEX cards. Most of that money does make it back to CCP, so that argument is not valid. The game is not ruined as CCP is making all the money it should be making from alt accounts.
And finaly, my favorite argument is the infamous “Falcon Alt” ruining the game argument. Many PvP pilots have a second account simply to run a Falcon pilot. Now granted, this is again a perfect example of metagaming as the Falcon alt exists from using the out of game knowledge that ECM will make a PvP pilot more effective.
Does running a Falcon alt ruin the game?
Again, no.
As much as we all do hate being continually jammed by a Falcon pilot, the results of the game play would be the same if both the PvP pilot and the Falcon pilot were different people working together. So again, repeat after me:
It’s not whether or not metagaming exists, it’s whether or not the game play would have a different outcome as a result of metagaming. That’s the real issue.
EVE is a game where you have to have people working together. For those of us who find ourselves in the situation where we are alone, having alts allows us to level the playing field a bit. It allows you to have variety in your game play and experience all that EVE has to offer. It allows you to leverage your abilities to enhance your game play just as effectively as if you were working with another person.
Anyone remember the ‘Power of Two’ promotions that happen every now and again? Ever visited the character bazzar on the EVE forums? Alt accounts and alt characters are a built in feature of the game. It’s something that we are in fact encouraged to use and thus enhance our game play.
So, is the use of alt accounts metagaming? I think we have shown here that that is in fact the case.
Does the use of alt accounts ruin the game as a result? Again, I think we have shown here that alt accounts do not ruin the game, they in fact enhance it.
Please do read these other fine posts on this month’s Blog Banter!!!
- Epic Misadventures, This is my Alt – There are many like it but this one is mine.
- Inner Sanctum of the Ninveah, I Missed This Month’s Blog Banter!
- A Mule in EvE, Meta what? Is it hurting EvE?
- Morphisat’s EVE Online Blog, Me, Myself and I
- One Man And His Spaceship, Me and My Shadow
- Ombeve, Blog Banter edition 5
- Diving into PsycheDiver’s Psyche, CK’s Blog Banter #5: Everybody Needs Somebody
- Dense Veldspar, Blog Banter
- Ecliptic Rift, OOC: Blog Banter #5 Metagaming
- The Ralpha Dogs, Me, Myself and I
- Mad Rant, “Blog Banter – It’s my party, and I’ll alt if I want to….”
- EVE Chick, The Handicapper General
- New Eden Diaries, It’s only a game
- Oz’s House of the Evil Dead, If You Can’t Ride Two Horses At Once, You Shouldn’t Be In The Circus
- Diving into PsycheDiver’s Psyche, Everybody Needs Somebody
- CrazyKinux’s Musing, Leave what you know at the door please!
- Diary of a Pod Pilot, [OOC] EVE Blog Banter #5 Metagaming
- EvE – Wotlankor, [OOC] Alts and Metagaming
- Roc’s Ramblings, February Blog Banter – Meta Me
- Drunk in Space, Metagaming….so that’s the name.
- X1376’s Space Odyssey, Blog Banter #5: Army of One
- a merry life and a short one, EVE Blog Banter #5: Uh… (props for best response!!!)
- Zero Kelvin, Are alts ruining the game?
- DeafPlasma’s EVE Musings, Blog Banter #5: Alts & me!
- I am Keith Nielson, EVE is All About the Metagame
- Everyday EvE, Two Accounts Edition
- Blogging from inside the pod, EVE Blog Banter #5: Arletta and I
- Speed Fairy, Meet Paul
- Venom’s Bite, “My Split Personality”
- More coming as the articles post!!
February 26th, 2009 at 2:40 am
Unfortunately, your conclusion that they do not ruin the game is based on a premise that has not considered all of the options. Sure, your points stand regarding hauler alts and scout alts. It's not so relevant when you consider industrial and trading alts. Would an industrial character ran by a person as their main character hand over the bulk of their profits to fund the personal interests of another character, without any other tangible gain? It seems unlikely to me, and that means that people running trading alts or industrial alts /are/ altering the game play experience as a result of metagaming.____I wouldn't go so far as to say that ruins the game, but it certainly does undermine your premise
February 26th, 2009 at 3:03 am
Well, look at your example from this perspective. An industrial character builds products for the purpose of making isk from the sales of said products. What would that industrialist use said profits for? Increasing their industrial capacity is one use, funding operations for their corporation and/or alliance is another. Take a look at T2 production, it's the funding mechanism for many of the major alliances combat activities.
I'm not saying that every industrialist in the game hands over all their isk, but they do make major contributions. It's the purpose of that profession to produce product and generate income.
In a nutshell, the characters in game are simply tools to accomplish an objective. It does not truly matter if those characters are being played by a single person or a group as the end result, an objective being accomplished, is the same.
February 26th, 2009 at 11:15 am
I'll concede your point if we're talking about a trading alt that is working directly for an alliance/corp. That would be much the same as an industrial main doing the same. Sacrifice personal profit to increase the effectiveness of the group.
But that's not the same as funding another individual. Say for example a corp provides free ships to its members, but they have to buy their own modules. Someone with an industrial alt will also get a free/cheap source of modules (not free for the alt, but effectively free for the main), giving them a leg up over someone without an alt. And there is no reasonable expectation that someone without an alt would be able to talk an industrial character in to giving them free modules on a regular ongoing basis. There is again a difference in gameplay here. It's not a gamebreaking difference, because someone could simply skill up their main in time anyway (though at the cost of skills in other areas), but it's a difference none the less
And before you argue that you could talk a builder in to giving you free tech I modules or the like, remember it's to make an examaple. Replace modules with ships/minerals/research slots or whatever, and my point would still stand
February 26th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
"As much as we all do hate being continually jammed by a Falcon pilot, the results of the game play would be the same if both the PvP pilot and the Falcon pilot were different people working together. "
I would like to take this point to another point of view. If alts were not allowed, then it would be the case that perhaps the Falcon would not be available as often to participate in combat thus making the PvP pilot more vulnerable. I.e. alts increases the supply of pilots in the game thus changing the dynamics.
So I would argue that alts are changing the game but I don't know if I would argue that they are ruining it.
As an aside, why did no one tell me about blog banter this month?
February 26th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Hey mate. CK emailed out the topic and the date to start posting late last week. I think everyone is very busy in real life, CK has been swamped with his new job. By all means, do join in, i forwarded his email to you.
In response to your observations, I do agree with you, Falcon pilot availability would probably not be as high if we were not allowed to create alt accounts. I do agree with you that the increased number of Falcon pilots in the game has changed things a bit. Falcons are overpowered, everyone knows this as many people create an alt to fly a Falcon. I can remember when everyone had Pilgrim and Curse alts as those ships pretty much killed the cap on anything they engaged. After the nos/neut balancing, the number of alts flying those ships decreased considerably as those pilots changed what they were trained on. It's funny, we have seen a number of Falcon pilots that are Amarr, wonder if they made the change from the Curse/Pilgrim to the Caldari recon ships. Some of the support skills would be useful for a Falcon pilot, including Recon shisp trained to level 5. It would not take that long to cross train into a Falcon.
You can always argue this point. Falcons in the current state to increase revenue for CCP as many people are creating Falcon alts for the sole purpose of PvP support, but I don't know how well that argument will hold water.
Alt do have an effect on the game, that point is not one that anyone can argue against. Does it ruin the game? I don't think it does. It provides some balancing to those people in smaller groups to be able to compete with the big boys.
February 26th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Looks like most of us come to the same conclusions
. An alt just opens up the game a bit more, espcially for people that play at odd hours etc.
February 26th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Yeah, we all do use alts and it seems that we all do agree that it doesn't ruin the game, it does enhance it.
February 26th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
My apologies for your comment not posting sooner, you submitted it three times and it tripped the spam filter.
Don't forget, you have the ability to create 3 characters per account. There is nothing stopping someone from creating that industrial alt to provide those cheaper modules to their main character. It's a matter of leveraging your character slots and thinking how to make things work for you.
That industrial alt is not providing 'free' modules to the main character. It cost time and materials for those modules or ships or minerals or whatever the alt is providing to the main. It's not that it ruins the game, it makes it easier for you if you need, say a research slot for a BPO. You have an identified person do to the work.
Granted, there are people who rent out research slots, but many people have been scammed by such things, hence the creation of industrial/research alts in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, EVE is a game that's meant to be played by a group of people and a group of people utilizing alts can accomplish a great deal. If we were not meant to use alts, why do we have the ability to create three characters per account? Why does CCP offer the 'Power of Two' promotion from time to time?
They do it because it's a game mechanic that is meant to be used.
Now, take a LARP for example. If someone metagames in a LARP, it immediately ruins the game. Use of that knowledge destroyed the immersion factor and changes the results of gameplay.
In order to use an alt in EVE, you are already immersed in the game, not the other way around. It's megatgaming, but the impact to the game play is very different. It enhances the activates, it does not dereail them.
February 26th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Good post, interesting comments too. I can't disagree with any of them! Interesting though about the Falcon alt, I hadn't thought of that…
February 26th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Sorry about the multiple replies. I tried the reply via email thing, and then couldn't see any sign of the post. If I post directly here I can see it's in the moderation queue, but didn't see even that much after the email post. Hence I posted here again
As for the "free" comment, well, from the perspective of the main character, it is free, and that is the perspective you have to use to make the measure of "…whether or not the game play would have a different outcome as a result of metagaming", The main getting free stuff does give a different outcome, because he can sustain more of whatever he is doing because of the free source of income.
Of course it's not free for the alt, but that doesn't mean that gameplay hasn't changed.
Me personally, I don't run alts, as they diminish my immersion. I'm not a roleplayer (well not online anyway), but I like the fact that the EVE world is the most internally consistent MMORPG on the market. Most things in the game can do reasonably well when held up to the metric "Would things really work like this if this situation were real", and trading and industrial alts specifically diminish that aspect for me.
In my ideal world, people wouldn't run alts at all, but that being said, they don't come close to ruining the game for me…
February 26th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
I suppose you could consider alts as employees. The scout is a paid employee of the freighter pilot. The industrialist is an employee of the trader or mission runner or whatever. I have even seen several bloggers RP the situation similarly, where the alt is an employee of the main.
February 26th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
No worries on the multiple replies, it's all sorted in the end. If you can come up with a real zinger of an example that alts can ruin the game, please let me know, I would love to have a discussion about it.
February 26th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
I had not thought about that. Alts are your employees…..interesting. Kind of fits too. Well said mate!!!
February 26th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Probably not going to happen, given that I don't think they do ruin the game
February 26th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
I'm going to be the naysayer again, but it doesn't make much sense. A pod pilot is immortal. They can rule the skies and master all fields in time. Why would someone like that work for a wage? I guess it's possible to say that they're contractually obliged because the main financed them through pilot school or something, but that's awfully contrived given the number of alts out there
February 26th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
Well, I can tell you that pilots in the pirate corp I am in do receive a 'wage'. It's really just a portion of the loot sales from corp operations that is split among the active members in that particular operation. It's one of the things that is a benefit of being in our little corp.
Nah, it's just a way to look at your alts, as you said, obligated because they put that pilot through school.
February 27th, 2009 at 5:31 am
We can agree it doesn't ruin the game. I don't know that I'd go so far as saying they enhance it
February 28th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
I think of my carebear and hauler alts as a "business associate" and in fact often refer to them as such in my blog posts, similar to Leumas' idea of thinking of them as employees. "Business associate" might be more accurate in light of Cyron's argument, since technically all of me is hoping that we end up making a profit together in one way or another.
Great post, Galen!
March 1st, 2009 at 2:43 am
Business associates, that's a great way to put it!!!
March 1st, 2009 at 3:04 am
That might just work Mynxee, as long as the funds and items transfers go both ways as needed, and you don't have one character living off the "hard work" of the other